Posts by Hobo Ken

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

Hobo Ken

Thanks found sheep , glad you enjoyed it.

Matt

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

@truthlover You make a very good point. These people are part of a Conscious class of Jehovah's Witnesses who neither want to or feel able to completely separate themselves from the their identity as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. In my opinion these ones have made a conscious decision to take things into their own hands and regain some kind of control of how their life plays out. Since they have taken this deliberate action it indicates to me they have good reason to "fade" from the organisation they once believed to be the "the truth" otherwise why leave? This is not to be confused with people who have just drifted away with no agenda.

I would call them a Concious class.Ones who have relative freedom as you say to come and go and have moderate social contact with JW's without the stigma of shunning.

I'm sure they don't all have a common reason for fading but one thing is for sure they will be viewed as a group by the Watchtower's leadership. And a dangerous group at that. In my view the org don't want people to be able to find a loophole such as this and exploit it. Those within the org who have contact with such ones may see that their life is quite a bit easier without all the workload a JW has to cope with. Also what's to prevent them from passing on dangerous questions and doubts or perhaps negative information about the Witnesses?

I think that the Governing Body is very well aware of "faders" and action will be taken at some point to close this loophole. Of course "faders" still have an element of Watchtower control over them. They can't be seen doing the following things: Smoking, drunken-ness, celebrating xmas and birthdays ,so called "immoral lifestyle" etc etc.

@slimboyfat of course I recognise the differences but the net result is the same: curtailment of freedom and being controlled by people you don't know. And without a proper case study I agree with you it's a metaphorical comparison but srtiking similarities exist noetheless.

Matt

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

Hobo Ken

@slimboyfat I'm not sure if you have read the article very carefully at all.

I have to disagree with the statements you make.

You state: "The sympathy the captives expressed for their captors in Stockholm has been described as a rational psychological response in a situation where they had no opportunity to escape"

When actually the article stated the opposite to be the case:

"Stockholm Syndrome is a term in psychology used to describe a paradoxical psychological phenomenon where hostages have positive feelings towards their captors. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger"

So far as I can gather You are implying that Jehovah's Witnesses are not held hostage and not physically stopped from leaving the organisation or having food withheld etc. But rather are both "persuaded" to remain and told it's in "their best interests" not to read "apostate" information. So is this why it's quantifyably different to Stockholm Syndrome? A little simplistic and obvious to say the least.

I have to say that a short hostage drama in which physical parameters are present in relation to the victim are very different to a person who is free to do what they wish on any given day. But what we are discussing is the mental process and thought patterns here not the physicality of the situation. Please consider these points.

Does a Witness have the freedom to go to a church and sit through a service to even ASSESS the "spiritual food" they have to offer?

Does a Witness have the freedom to sit and openly read a book such as "gentile times reconsidered"? Which is basically information which the "outside world" not only has access to but considers to be historically and factually correct.

Does a Witness have the freedom to leave the organisation because they choose to without any punishment or impact on their life?

Does a Witness have the freedom to choose who to associate with based on their own assessment of that person be they family or not?

Does a Witness have the freedom to choose what particular medical treatment they wish for themselves or their minor children?

Does a Witness have the freedom to question the authority of the "faithful slave"?

The answer of course to the above questions is yes. But will the person be allowed to remain a Witness if they excercised such freedom??

The answer of course is a resounding NO.

So while no one is a physical hostage in the organisation they most certainly are mentally. So perhaps the comparison is more suitably termed control. The hostage taker has a hostage but only because he has control.The Watchtower Society is a high-control organisation.

This quote from the article sums this up:

"I don't think it was a mistake that Don Cameron had the word "captive" in his book title.There are no literal bars and no physical location in which a Witness is held. So the prison is therefore a mental one constructed and maintained by the person , but the architect is of course the Governing Body via literature published by the Watchtower Society."

You conclude by stating:

"So with the hostages in Stockholm it was about coming to terms with a situation that could not be altered and making the most of it. With JWs on the other hand membership of the Watchtower is an active choice in a world of other possibilities."

There are many on this forum who have come to terms with their situation within the organisation and feel they can't leave because of various factors even though they would dearly love to.

Others have to "fade". Why?

They feel it's possibly their only option to avoid being disfellowshipped such is their disdain for the Watchtower organisation.This coupled with a desire to have the basic right to retain their family. Understandably so.

And as for your last sentence I'm sorry Slimboyfat but I simply do not believe that what you are saying is true. It may be an active choice for one who is first joining, but is it a FULLY INFORMED one? I think not. And as for those who I've just discussed it's harldy an "active choice in a world of possibilities."

I couldn't disagree more with your sentiments. I don't know if you are a Witness or not but I feel you are trying to defend their position with some illogical fallacies.

@dozy thanks Your post is in agreement with what I've just been typing.

Matt

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

Hobo Ken

@giordano Thanks for reading and posting your thoughts.

I think the sense of collective will and unity is played upon very strongly within the jw camp. In fact they even cite this as proof of their identity as "God's people" so it would follow that fostering such notions in the mind would indeed be a compelling reason to remain part of the movement. Having convinced one's self that it is true and that you stand shoulder to shoulder with your fellow brothers and sisters united in thought, why would you suddenly discard it all? It could very well be an additional factor.

@mad sweeny Thanks for reading the article and posting too.

To address your points:

The above that you refer to in the article were not specific "apostate" ideas, rather they were things which all Witnesses are likely to have heard about and thus given some degree of thought to.

Child protection policy.

Medical issues such as blood transfusions , organ transplants etc.(which jw parent hasn't thought of the possibility of losing their child in this scenario?)

The United Nations involvement(which made the newspapers).

Almost all Witnesses will have struggled with at least some of the doctrines at some point, perhaps harbouring doubts.

So with these in mind many decide that there's not clear and present danger and remain in the Watchtower organisation.

Of course you rightly state that many Witnesses will not look at "apostate" material and do something about it by leaving. But information is much easier to come by than in previous decades and the amount of material from ex Witnesses on the Internet grows every week. People are leaving in however small numbers.

The point in the article is not to highlight a particular demographic within the Witnesses who will or will not be affected psychologically. But rather the overall similarities that seem to exist with this Syndrome and a jw's possible reason for remaining in.

Of course I point out that SS affects 27% in certain situations but in a religious environment , which has not been case studied, could be very different. And in fact neither is the article claiming to prove that Stockholm Syndrome is occuring only pointing out the possibility by behavioural comparison.

@cofty Thanks for reading and posting your comments.

Perhaps there is a case for it applying on a larger scale to religion in general which is probably a whole new thread!

However not all religions are run in the same way. And therfore any possible effect would be evident to a greater or lesser degree depending on say , how much of a high-control group they are. Would Stockholm Syndrome have a greater hold in Bhuddism or the branch Davidians led by David koresh?

I do agree that to some extent religion is interwoven with emtional dependency especially on the divine.

Matt

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

Hobo Ken

@lifelonghumanist I thank you very much for your kind words.

Regarding your wife's decision to remain in the group it can be hard to understand why others do not see things the way we do. For some it is black and white and although the descision and process of leaving is a trauma it is has to be done whatever the cost. Others evaluate things differently and choose a value system which may leave us perplexed but that is due to the funamental differences in human nature and the way we see life.

I hope that one day she may "click" so to speak or perhaps her reasons for remaining will diminish and she will join you on the outside.

I concur with the other points you make ,but don't give up. Things could change quickly. Something could trigger a shift in thought or values.

Yes religion has a lot to answer for.

@jomavrick I couldn't agree more. Fear is a key component of control.And you rightly state that the high visibility of the various levels and threats on show within the Watchtower organisation deliver this very well.

However difficult it may be you have in my view taken the correct path. I empathise completely.

Matt

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

Hobo Ken

@darthfrosty nice spot and I think it typifies the regression one must make mentally to go back to the place where they once were. They would have to believe that without the organisation they are lost and also not leading a good life.

As a consequence they must accept the life they lived previously almost like a comfort blanket. And also I note the belief there are no viable alternatives.

@band on the run Thankyou for your comments. I do think the Bible has a place but really in this setting the Bible is just one of the "tools" the Watchtower borrows to bolster it's authority along with their publications, the threat of excommunication and peer conformity. Really the mind of a Jehovah's Witness is split into several shcisms which include all of the above factors all helping to moderate their actions.

And you're correct the religion isn't all bad but again quantifyably what are they? It could be strongly argued they are a mind-control cult. The original hostages in the syndrome discussed rationalised that there was some good in their captors, even defending them but did that make the situation ok?

@camelot you are correct fear is a component when one wishes to control another. Fear of rejection, the unknown, isolation, death.

@thelove doctor thankyou for your comments also.

@mindseye Very well observed. Of course the psychology behind the people is a huge subject and we're only touching on it here. But I couldn't agree more with your comment about intelligence not being the single deciding factor. My brother is intellectually no different to me and yet I've had the chance to present many of my thoughts to him and used the Bible as I want to help him break free but still he remains a JW. Part of that I believe is due to the personality of which I would class him as ESFJ down to a tee. Whereas the people I have personally met in a local setting who have left are very much Ns and Ps types myself included. This does not of course mean better, just different types.

@ausieoz Thanks and I totally agree with what you say. Hassan's book probably delves into the cult psyche a lot more but a survey would be great to analyse JW's specifically. Unlikely though.

@cantleave thanks for your comment and liked the ringtone recollection!

@loubelle That's very honest of you to say you saw those traits in yourself and most JWs if they were equally so would recognise them within their own thinking too at some point.I have too. The problem of course is that many don't ever have a clear enough head or the space to evaluate or discuss their feelings without atttracting undue negative attention. Very sad.

@slimboyfat Thanks. To address your points:

First off anyone is welcome without doubt to defend or accuse the Watchtower as they see fit. It is for others to asses the validity of such and decide where they stand. I respect people's right to believe in whatever they wish within the confines of the law and accepted things like basic human rights and moral and ethical values.

As for a JW/former JW not being taken seriously because they could be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? I don't believe that's really the issue. But to address the question. Firstly I'm only drawing a striking comparison with apparent behavioural similarities of Jehovah's Witnesses and Stockholm Syndrome. And even if it could be established that SS is a factor remember that only some 27% of people developed these thinking patterns. So therefore would not apply uniformally.

A factor to consider is after a person has left an organisation such as the Watchtower Society they still have to evaluate what they have left behind. Some have a kind of epiphany and it suddenly dawns on them what the Watchtower Society was. For others, as has been shown they never really get over leaving and go as far as defending the organisation or even returning. That of course is their right and choice however frustrating that may be for others to understand.

To address your other point:

I don't believe it would be good to "reject the validity" of someone's views based on the presupposition they were "suffering" from some condition.

First what are these hypothetical "valid views"? Surley they should be accepted/rejected based on their relative merit rather than on the basis of possible condition of the person who's presenting them?

For instance John Forbes Nash was diagnosed as a paranoid Schitzophrenic as yet devised some the greatest mathematical work ever seen on differential geometry and game theory and his work is used today in evolutionary biology, artificial intelligence, market economics. A film was made about his life called A beautiful mind.

Matt

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

Hobo Ken

bttt

33

What keeps a JW in the religion? A new angle.

by Hobo Ken in

there are many reasons why but i wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?.

i've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.. the comparisons between stockholm's syndrome and jw behaviour are striking.. what keeps a jw in the religion?.

matt.

Hobo Ken

There are many reasons why but I wonder if there could be a dominant mental mechanism at work?

I've done a bit of research and written this article on the subject.

The comparisons between Stockholm's syndrome and Jw behaviour are striking.

What keeps a JW in the religion?

Matt